Skaters for Public Skateparks Forum

Well, it's not really a "skate plaza," per se. It's a park feature build adjacent to the Korean War memorial in the middle of Wilsonville, Oregon. I post it to illustrate a few things:

1.) Look: cities (i.e., they are NOT skatepark companies) seem to understand how to create stuff street skaters like to skate, in many cases more so than skatepark companies
2.) Look: cities seem to understand their design expertise, else they wouldn't have put skate stoppers all over the park
3.) Look: the park isn't even open yet, and it's been skated plus one of the skate stoppers have been knocked out
4.) Look: cities haven't yet grasped that they can aesthetically address the risk of damage by choosing not to expose low-grade concrete, that they can instead cover the edges with a higher-strength material and thus eliminate the risk of damage in the first place.



Oops, before we start, let's address what most assume to be "the answer" to the problem of kids skateboarding where they shouldn't be. Wilsonville already has a "skatepark." It's terrible, clearly ignores those things that kids want to skate, and is perhaps the most un-fun thing in Oregon, but it's still a "skatepark," by definition.


As if the park wasn't awful enough, the sprinklers regularly water the park because the parks people haven't yet changed the sprinkler's orientation, you know, now that the "skatepark" has been there for 2 or 3 years. At no point did the city of Wilsonville actually ask the kids what they wanted to skate, instead they leaped at an opportunity to pick up some discarded ramps abandoned by (I think) Beaverton.



As you can see here, the kids of Wilsonville have been gifted a new and more appealing place to skate.



Even those elements that are in water have skate stoppers. Everything does.



At first the "skate stopping" of the water bound elements was a mystery, but then I realized that when the park is empty of water the entire thing becomes even more appealing. I mean, it's on a downhill track and there are several things to ollie onto and off of. Good job, Wilsonville!



Check this out: low, sidewalk-grade concrete with embedded home-made skate stoppers. It doesn't take a civil engineer to know what's going to happen here over the course of a few years. I visualize a badly chipped and damaged park. I can think of a better way to address this risk! Can you?


A look from the top looking back down the "track."




Most of my adult life has been spent in the private sector. In my world people would be canned for making these sorts of decisions. Regarding medium-term TCO (total cost of ownership) people should know better by now. Might I emphasize by now. It's not 1985. Cities have sought to criminalize skateboarding for over 20 years. Efforts have not only failed, but have (as will be the case for Wilsonville) end up being unduly expensive.

As I said, I function in the private sector. Within the realm of engineering, in fact. Engineering could be thought of as the art of thoughtfully applying resources to identified risks and constraints. It's been over 20 years and those engineers who design features such as what's seen above still haven't got the memo: your efforts aren't working and are costing you money. Maybe it's time to get humble and start consulting with your citizens on skateboards.

I is just me or are those stoppers interfering with the water flow? That's quite unsightly.

Yes, and they are at the ends of all such drop-offs. This thing is going to be a blast when it's empty.

So I've been thinking about this ever since Kent sent me a link to this thread a week ago.

What if we started looking for parks like this, and began talking with the designers about building a skatepark.

Some skaters could get involved to fine tune, a partnership could assure a great product, and a new frontier could be explored in street park design.

The end result would probably be a more integrated looking park, with some unique features, and would be more true to the existing environment that street skaters prefer to the stuff that the traditional skatepark companies cook up.

It seems like it could work if people could get over the whole "not a skater-run company thing" that's made complete sense in the transition world, but maybe not in the street skate world.

I'm telling you: landscape and public-space architects are the ultimate street designers.

Yesterday I drove by Cali Mill Park, the city's "showcase" park on it's busiest intersection. Symantec and the tony hotel and apartments are behind. Apple is down the street. H-P is around the corner. "Java Row" sits kitty-corner from there.

And the kids were sessioning that thing like crazy.

If someone can establish good blueprints of successful streetscape elements than almost any LA / GC team could build great stuff. A bowl is more of an art form (best left up to the artists), where ledges/banks/etc is more of a science - perhaps we need to go a different route....

Chad Balcom wrote: A bowl is more of an art form (best left up to the artists), where ledges/banks/etc is more of a science.

That's brilliant. That should be in literature.

But I think what makes this thing so skateworthy and appealing is the artistry. It's not just a bunch of stairs and rails, it's a cool layout of cascading ledges and the water is cool too. I would love to see more water integrated into skateparks.

Traditional public art features would make people look differently at skateparks.

As we all know, currently the skaters barge the spot late at night when no one is around to mess with them. How rad would it be if the roles were reversed and the non-skaters were waiting until after all the skaters left so they could go sit in the park and listen to the water gurgle or check out the view?

This could happen if a park intended for skateboarding had other appealing, creative, features.

How do we find out who built this thing?

Its that kind of thinking that makes you such a great part of this movement, MLJ. Without the dreamers like yourself, you cannot establish the far side of the bell curve.

Keep it comming!

Cheers Chad...and thanks for not using the word "hippie".

Chad nailed it. Tranny = art; street = science. We've more or less nailed the challenge of getting people to realise the importance of getting skater-run companies to do tranny. But now we've tried to get skater-owned tranny companies to do street, and they've created, uh, street in the flat bottom of a half-pipe. I think we need to work with those who are already building sweet street terrain.

Kent Dahlgren wrote:Chad nailed it. Tranny = art; street = science.

The way obstacles are combined and layed out is very important and cannot be boiled down to something an architect can understand. Yes EMB and LOVE were designed by architects and were great places to skate, but they could have been way better with a different layout.

Here we have Chad and Kent proclaiming that street is science, yet neither of them skate street, how would they know, they don't skate street. To a non-skater skating looks dangerous, to a tranny guy street looks like a science. If I proclaimed to know the science behind tranny design and thatit could be distilled down to something an architect could design from all you tranny guys would scoff at me. I am surprised that Carl agrees here, care to produce a "formula"? I could do the same for tranny and it would be as valuable as any formula anyone could come up with for street, that is virtually worthless.

Encouraging the design of "street plazas" by non skaters is the WRONG way to go. We advocate for D&B yet when it comes to stuff "we" don't skate then it is ok for non skaters to design it because what, we *might* save a little money? And if it comes out jacked I only skate the bowl anyway.

While plazas are great, they do need some banks and variation other than stairs and ledges, once any banks are introduced an architect would be truly lost.

Many skaters cannot design good street (anyone skated Milton Wa.?), yet we are honestly talking about making some list of definitions and formulas so that a non skater can do what many skaters can't? Am I the only one that thinks this is absurd?

I have serious reservations about non-skaters doing skatepark design, too. That's why I have been pushing for convincing the builders to design and build more balanced parks so we don't have to go other routes (and I'm not yet convinced that they won't do it, either). Some of our other contributors are pointing out that there are LA's that unwittingly build killer street skating terrain on their own - perhaps with a little help they could build even better stuff. I have mixed feelings in regards to that.

If you look at the sheer amount of concrete poured in your average city - well of course you are going to end up with a few things that just happen to be very skateable, right? But what is the percentage of spot to non-spot? Do we think that we can afford a concrete learning curve?

On one hand, lets look at the LOP (Ladder of Progression) that we are working on behind the scenes. One could draw blueprints for a 4 foot mini-ramp that would be relevant everywhere. Same goes for an 18" ledge, flatbar, etc. I think one would not have to see too many skateparks to agree that solid plans for common elements could have helped a majority of the parks out there today. However, I would be very hesitant to believe that a non-skater could take even these perfect elements we just designed and place them in to a cohesive unit without the involvement of an adult skater who specializes in the terrain at hand.

(And you are correct about my current skateboarding preference. I haven’t been serious about skating streetstyle since about '99 or '00. The advent of skateparks combined with simply getting sick and tired of rent-a-cops started to get to me. I took a nasty fall on a handrail in KC which effectively drove me to the park. That being said, I certainly don’t feel that far removed from the streets, as I spent from '88 to '00 only skating natural terrain. I was just like the vast majority of skateboarders today: without a designated place to skate, you have no choice but go into the streets. I am very thankful to have that choice today.

Furthermore, I am hurt by the implication that if I choose not to ride a certain style of terrain that I am not interested in its quality inclusion in the modern skatepark. That is simply not the case. I long for the day when we can start seeing streetscape in our skateparks that is so ... good that I have no choice but to skate it. I fully plan on tearing in to the Vancouver plaza when we go up there to study it!)

There are thousands of places to skate like that fountain, it is nothing special. That is why there is a market for skate stoppers.
That in no way means that they should substitute for a skater/designer doing a street plaza.
Just a skater is not good enough to consult for a design, it needs to be some one who skates and who understands design.
I get worried when i here about the "ladder of progression".
you simply can not tell a designer what to design unless you are the client.
You must be an experienced designer to make these decisions. Meaning that you have personally gone through the design/build process of your own job several times yourself.
Setting guidlines to coach the clients is not a bad idea.

Incidentally the Wilsonville is stupid. Why would anyone with half a brain design something with skatestoppers on it. Would it not make more sense to make it unskateable in the first place?
it is like putting up drywall before you do the plumbing and electrical, purely assinine.

Chad Balcom wrote:Furthermore, I am hurt by the implication that if I choose not to ride a certain style of terrain that I am not interested in its quality inclusion in the modern skatepark.

Sorry, my big red button got bumped.