Wilsonville, Oregon: New street plaza

[Kent Dahlgren]

Well, there are 3-4 new skateparks a week in the US. How many "skater owned" companies out there are designing killer street? We went to four of them and they blew us off. How many Land Scape architecture firms are there? I bet you if/when we spend even 50% of the energy we have for "skater owned" firms trying to get LA's up to speed, they'd be more than willing to listen and implement.

Why the bias against LA's? Especially if the skater owned companies aren't listening, convinced they know how to do street?

I don't understand your motivation. Is it to build good skateable areas, or to protect the business of skaters?

[Mark Goddard]

Re my post earlier:

Street has been marginalized for years and dismissed as not necessary in parks because you can skate it anywhere (or so I am told). So here we have actually gotten to the point where even the most devout tranny follower (Dan H.) believes street to be necessary in parks. Then comes this "street can be designed by non-skaters". It really came across to me as a marginalization of street once again (Tranny needs to be designed by the pros, but with some guidelines architects can design street...wrong!), not done intentionally, but it has that effect none the less. Street parks are hard to design with the space that is usually available, it is difficult to fit everything in, yet there needs to be open space as well for flat ground. It is easier to design tranny than street, Carter also agrees with me on this point FWIW.

[Mark Goddard]

Why the bias against LA's? Especially if the skater owned companies aren't listening, convinced they know how to do street?

I don't understand your motivation. Is it to build good skateable areas, or to protect the business of skaters?

Well it is a frustrating situation, on one hand the current "Pros" don't build good street, but I also feel that someone that does not skate will fail as well. I really don't have a "solution" but I am very fearfull of non-skaters designing parks.

[Kent Dahlgren]

I share your skepticism, Mark, but I believe we of all entities can craft a solution. But first, let's think of the pure logistics of the problem:

- 3 to 4 new skateparks a week in the US
- Skateparks take 6-8+ weeks to create
- There are 4-5 "skater owned and operated" skatepark companies most advocates agree are the most capable

Can you see where we have a problem? Even if the companies many consider the best were to actually listen to us regarding street terrain, there still isn't enough of them to actually do the work.


SPS - we have created this thing and are asking people to look to us for answers. Well, what happens if the NY Times calls you up and asks what you recommend as a solution to the problem of bad skateparks? "Hire skater owned-operated companies?" Ok, but it won't take long to figure out how this "solution" was not thought out.

We have a throughput problem. There's simply not enough craftsmen (and women) to fill the need, and there sure won't be for any foreseeable future. So we need to bridge the gap. How? I submit by creating ...I don't know what to call them. "Guidelines" has a bad name, but there are some guiding principles we could author that help others figure out how to avoid creating a bad skateable area.

Pete Whitley created a great illustration that shows what a kink is on a tranny park. Anyone who looks at this thing would know what a kink is, and would understand why you need to not create kinks. This becomes a guideline.

Does the hold of this guideline automatically become a world-famous skatepark designer? Probably not. As skaters we understand the difference between good and great. But LA's, of all people, are trained to ask the right questions, and respond accordingly.

We often just want them to listen to us, but I submit that we need to create recommendations in more actionable terms. Simply waving our arms won't do. We need to create something tangible that an LA could pick up and understand what works, and why.

I do not believe it's impossible for a non-skater to create compelling skate terrain. Most of my favorite spots were created by non skaters (for purposes other than skateboarding, obviously). Most were by accident, but that doesn't mean we can't express examples of what works, and why. A cookbook, perhaps, of many elements that really turn skaters on. Explaining the why is exactly the sort of thing LA's are trained to respond to. I know many LA's who would sit back and say "ahhh," enabling them to look at the world through different eyes.

I can guarantee you an LA wouldn't dismiss the recommendations because "street is lame," "tranny is for big real men," or the myth that inside each street skater is a tranny skater trying to get out. That's what we are currently encountering with skater-owned and operated companies. I can appreciate the interest in "giving our people a fighting chance," but in the interim the skateparks keep coming in. I don't have as much patience. We've all tried, and were 100% dismissed because "they already know how to design street."

Any other ideas? I can visualize a walking tour of what turns street skaters on, and why (illustrated). Basically, a verbose glossary. It doesn't have to be comprehensive. Recall what I shared about Pete's brilliant illustration re: kinks in tranny. It solved so many problems at once, with just one illustration. We could do that. We are certainly staffed with the right people.

[Nathaniel Adie]

Your are correct about a lot of what you are saying kent.
i did not know that 3-4 parks are being made every week. that seems crazy where might i ask is that coming from. if it is true then i would like to be involved.

The cook book is an important idea. aswell as the glossary(which i am cut and pasting right now.)

I think that the reason that you got such a poor reception when talking to the designers about doing street is because of two reasons.
1. They understand street in a way similair to how you did a few weeks ago.
2. they are designers and feel that they know the best thing to do because they are engulfed in their egos.
as - does terrible street, well built but baaaddd design
gl - has good ideas but for some reason cant pour a straight line in concrete.
dl - has a descent grasp but isn't quite getting what works.
i am guessing that these are the companies that you spoke with.

i think that LA's won't ever really grasp skate parks but a cookbook will at least help avert complete disasters. In the end i feel that the design of a skatepark or skateboard related area should be in the hands of a person that understand both skateboarding, design and construction. This may be my opinion but i feel it is a well founded one.

[Mark Goddard]

Can you see where we have a problem? Even if the companies many consider the best were to actually listen to us regarding street terrain, there still isn't enough of them to actually do the work.

I commented on this very problem in the port townsend thread, not enough capable companies.

According to what you have posted we cannot leave the tranny up to the "artists" because there are not enough of them, with which I agree. So the science/art issue is irrelevant. We need to create a formula for both tranny and street.

A big problem I see is a desire to build parks for as cheap as possible, this creates a situation where people are hesitant to get into the park building industry because there is little money in it. If there was more money avalible for the park companies there would be more of them, and more parks could be built by the competent companies that would surley come into being if there was more money in park building. The problem with companies charging more is that parks then end up smaller. I can say that the DL guys worked for less mone than the local concrete guys in Driggs, good for driggs because we got more for our money, ut bad because nobody wants to compete with someone that has a good reputation and does it for very little money.

[Dan Hughes]

Seems to me that there are two issues. One is design, and one is construction.

With tranny, I've seen where the design is ok, but the park ends up with kinks, because the contractor building the park, doesn't appreciate the importance of constructing a park without kinks. The design is then rendered irrelevant, because the construction is bad.

With street, it seems that if it's designed correctly, most any contractor could construct it. I mean, they specialize in making flat pads with straight ledges. In other words, if the design is specified with enough detail (including how much take off and landing areas area needed, where to put granite or brick banks etc.) it seems to me that a street park could be constructed with some success by your average concrete company. Mainly because that's what they specialize in already.

I don't think the same can be said for the tranny section of the park. This is just my opinion, based on my observation.

Further. What are the options? Who is making killer street plazas? Newline isn't going to work in the USA. Who's making Drydek's park? Site design?

I'm planning on working with Kirkland, and my goal is to have the best park possible. If that means telling the tranny guys to take a hike, when it comes to the street portion, then that's what I'll recommend. It's not about egos, it's about end results.

What is the best way to get the best street possible?

[Andy Liedel]

I don't feel that design wise tranny parks are any more artistic than street. You can break both of them down to numbers if you are so inclined.

But construction wise, a tranny park requires highly specialized techniques that wouldn't be needed to build a plaza. So a GC would have a better chance of success.

And as Kent stated, the LA/GC combo is not going away, and will probably continue to account for more parks than the design/build teams. After our personal experience trying to work through the LA/GC, I don't think they can ever be left alone to design and build no matter how many guidelines we give them. It's because they don't skate.

My biggest fear is that we compile a list of "guidelines" that they take as gospel, then feel they can handle everything on their own. When they see these "plazas", they are going to think "Hey, I already design that stuff". Then they will put an expansion joint ten inches back from a top stair.

Therefore I feel there is only one guideline we need to give to both the GC and the LA. Hire a skateboarder with skatepark design experience to work with you, throughout the whole process. There may not be enough DB firms to handle the work, but if this board is any indication there are plenty of knowledgable skaters that would be more than willing to help.

[Nathaniel Adie]

I like what andy is saying.

If the plaza and street areas are just "flat pads with straight ledges".
I thnk that we are missing out on an opportunity to make innovative designs.

[Dan Hughes]

I'm not saying that Street is "just" anything. Design is vitally important.

With street, it seems that if it's designed correctly, most any contractor could construct it. I mean, they specialize in making flat pads with straight ledges. In other words, if the design is specified with enough detail (including how much take off and landing areas area needed, where to put granite or brick banks etc.) it seems to me that a street park could be constructed with some success by your average concrete company. Mainly because that's what they specialize in already.

I agree with Andy, that having a skateboarder on the payroll to oversee a project would be ideal.

[Mark Goddard]

If the plaza and street areas are just "flat pads with straight ledges".
I think that we are missing out on an opportunity to make innovative designs.

Exactly, a street area that is only ledges and stairs, is like a tranny area that is only a 4' half pipe, there needs to be banks, and more of them than stairs, but still a few different sets of stairs/drop offs to offer an LOP for the stair guys.

[Dan Hughes]

All of which could be addressed with a good design spec.

[Mark Goddard]

All of which could be addressed with a good design spec.

As Nathaniel said the guidelins would prevent a total disaster which is better than nothing...

However once banks are introduced to a street section flow becomes involved, flow is very difficult to define. I have skated more pools than I can remember and my bowl design is still not very good (In your opinion), street is harder to design than tranny, but someone that has never skated can supposedly design street with some guidelines? If that is true for street then it would be more true for tranny which is easier to design, scary, huh.

Here is a quote from one of the few other guys here that used to be really into street (and mabye still is pending inspection of new pics )

I agree that designing street is more difficult than designing bowls. Lines are more vague.

Guidelines are better than nothing in the end, I can't deny that...

[Nathaniel Adie]

Is this debate based on the postion that this site is going to take on who or what to recomended for design?

If so i would say that we should decide on the best sol'ns. Then we can list or rank them.

my preference would be a that there is never a design done strictly from a book of specs or codes. There would always be some sort of input from an experienced party. That party would be able to show proficency in all aspects of which they advise on. Meaning they can skate street well, they can skate trannsition well and last but very important, they undersatnd design and construction well.

[Kent Dahlgren]

I've had several phone calls behind the scene on this very topic. Core Contributors: check the associated thread on this topic in the Lab. Dan and Pete have a good idea of how we can help, but I want your input.